tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post3227975258228610069..comments2023-10-18T08:34:32.335-07:00Comments on Banana Pepper Martinis: The Systems of Chrono TriggerKirk Battlehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/16612840105075834275noreply@blogger.comBlogger8125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post-61570779486595966492013-04-18T22:12:33.535-07:002013-04-18T22:12:33.535-07:00As much as I like your systems analysis, I think y...As much as I like your systems analysis, I think you shouldn't ignore the linear progress itself. It's precisely <i>because</i> CT runs its narrative in a logical, evidence-expounding way that it's so much better to study than the standard macguffin-collection quests of the genre.<br /><br />You state that it's not interested in discussing consequences, but I disagree: I think it not only explores, but also <i>subverts</i> them. The player is often aware of their future movements, not only because they may recognize standard gaming tropes ("heroes defeat villains") but because someone specifically mentions the events in the future. For example, in 1000 AD at the Millennial Fair, a few people mention the defeat of Magus in the middle ages. After the party returns from the future, it becomes increasingly clear that Magus is somehow intertwined with Lavos, and eventually that they themselves will defeat him. But then, when they finally confront him at his keep, he manages to escape through the giant time gate -- a complete subversion of the player's expectation. They were led to believe that they were pulling a lever, but really, the lever was pulling <em>them</em>.<br /><br />Like I said, I dig your stuff; I just think it's important to maintain the connection from the underlying complexities back to the surface. After all, that's what drew us to it in the first place, right?Simon Robertshttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17656417618699122533noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post-15216107445841370352011-10-16T05:47:37.570-07:002011-10-16T05:47:37.570-07:00Oh wow, I missed this comment somehow. Sorry Jamey...Oh wow, I missed this comment somehow. Sorry Jamey, I don't check over this thing like I probably should. Thank you for the compliment and I agree, systems can be used for a wide range of things. As people loosen up on genre formulas I think they'll find there's a lot of room for exploration in game design.Kirk Battlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16612840105075834275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post-12424383680639348432011-07-29T20:47:35.933-07:002011-07-29T20:47:35.933-07:00This is beautiful. I'm so glad to see you post...This is beautiful. I'm so glad to see you posting again.<br /><br />We need more people examining games within a system theory context, particularly people who are capable of doing so as eloquently as you have here. I found it interesting that you brought up the work of Donella Meadows, as her explanation of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve_leverage_points" rel="nofollow">leverage points</a> is something that always struck me as being highly applicable to game design (and many other disciplines). I never thought of Chrono Trigger specifically in that context, but the example of Fiona's Forest is a great one.<br /><br />It's astounding to realize how much of the pleasure of play derives from the act of discerning these leverage points, and how much our notion of what constitutes good game design is coupled with a creator's ability to provide such affordances and communicate their intricacies to us.<br /><br />I think this inherent focus on systems that games naturally incline toward contributes to the idea that games are somehow detached, that they are inherently about "things, not people" as some have claimed. But I don't believe that's really the case. Static or not, Chrono Trigger's characters are vividly realized and memorable. Outside the realm of games, something like The Wire, which I would also classify as a "systems narrative" (and David Simon has essentially <a href="http://www.believermag.com/issues/200708/?read=interview_simon" rel="nofollow">said the same</a>, stating that the show was intentionally a Greek tragedy at its core), manages to retain a human focus even as it repeatedly depicts its characters as being trapped within a system they can't ever truly transcend.<br /><br />For me, what's most interesting right now are designers who are taking the concept of "expressive systems" and turning it toward more abstract or metaphorical constructs. The concept of "system" is tremendously elastic, but in games you often get the same literal examinations of temporal/spatial relationships, because that's the most easy and obvious route to take. But a system could just as easily be an emotional system, or a social system, and providing a context for players to explore the leverage points into those types of systems is crucial to the continued evolution of games.<br /><br />Anyway, that's a whole lot of fancy talk, but I mainly just wanted to say thanks for this post.Jamey Stevensonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15294298956590480597noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post-64161509434244557792011-07-27T18:31:26.423-07:002011-07-27T18:31:26.423-07:00Don't sweat it man, sorry I haven't replie...Don't sweat it man, sorry I haven't replied yet. I'm killed for time thee days. I looked your closer look at the flow of the game and how it mirrors out nicely with the story. The disorientation of the goals in the Ice Age world is still one of the most striking things. The map world itself was disorienting, like it took me a minute to figure out where to go even when replaying. I'll take a closer look at that graph I've got a free minute.<br /><br />And thanks for the kind words!Kirk Battlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16612840105075834275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post-39390434388437073752011-07-22T22:05:45.075-07:002011-07-22T22:05:45.075-07:00All STAR, not start. Curse my tired eyes.All STAR, not start. Curse my tired eyes.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16544012519893940420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post-85407145374566640602011-07-22T22:04:58.859-07:002011-07-22T22:04:58.859-07:00Your blog has been recommended to me by more than ...Your blog has been recommended to me by more than one source and now I understand why. Splendid!<br /><br />I continue to be amazed by how much analysis Chrono Trigger meaningfully endures. Perhaps because it was a veritable JRPG all-start team that made it? I come back to the game every year.<br /><br />Here's a post I did where I talked about the plot-as-level design. Considering your analytical interest, it might tickle your fancy.<br /><br />http://thegamedesignforum.com/features/architecture_of_dreams.html<br /><br />There's a graph at about the middle that weighs the available "plot" (number of conversations & NPCs) at any given point against the number of monsters and bosses at that same point in the plot. Damn thing took me like 5 hours to count up the data. <br /><br />The point is, the results are kind of uncanny, and you might appreciate them. This game is brilliant in quite a few ways.Patrickhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16544012519893940420noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post-439027751407646322011-07-22T08:09:23.471-07:002011-07-22T08:09:23.471-07:00Ah good catch, that's definitely a good contra...Ah good catch, that's definitely a good contrast of the perspectives due to their outsider status. That old guy who thinks of it as a good thing is so spooky in 1000.Kirk Battlehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16612840105075834275noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-826783898962653229.post-64752311453532230512011-07-22T07:25:18.444-07:002011-07-22T07:25:18.444-07:00"Compare that to your original perspective of..."Compare that to your original perspective of the desert when you walk through it in the year 1000. It’s just there."<br /><br />It's interesting that The Black Omen demonstrates the reverse of the Fiona's forest situation. The player witnesses the underlying cause and thus understands why it's an urgent problem. To the people of the year 1000, however, it's just a sky feature that has always been there. They comment nonchalantly about how "The Black Omen sparkles in the sun" without questioning why it would be floating there in the first place.Matthew Gallanthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01592343625367336913noreply@blogger.com